Special guest Wyatt Harms is a leading industry expert in Live Shopping. He led BuzzFeed’s go-to-market strategy for Live Shopping working with the United States’ largest retailers, such as Amazon, Walmart and Target. He then went on to build Bambuser’s publisher business. Now he runs the Video + Commerce newsletter and consults for Live Shopping tech companies and brands who want to lead in a video first era.
Learn how Wyatt got started in live commerce and the ways Buzzfeed and Amazon played a role in that. Hear Wyatt’s thoughts on whether live shopping is scaleable and the power of personalization through unique marketing experiences. Gain an understanding of how to bring a human touch to your marketing through live shopping. Find out what makes live content more successful in Asia and how we can apply that in the US. Uncover perspective on how consumers want to experience brands and conduct their research/pre-purchase journey. Discover where brands can see success and how to develop a custom playbook. Get tips on developing an effective strategy with creators and internal brand ambassadors.
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Transforming The eCommerce Experience With Personalized Video Content With Wyatt Harms
Our special guest is Wyatt Harms, who is a leading industry expert in live shopping. He led BuzzFeed’s go-to-market strategy for live shopping, working with United States’ largest retailers such as Amazon, Walmart, and Target. He then went on to build Bambuser’s publisher business, and now he runs the Video + Commerce newsletter and consults for live shopping tech companies and brands who want to lead in a video-first era. There is so much to talk about with all your experience. Wyatt, thank you so much for being here. Before we get into the conversation, Nicolas has an update on what’s going on over at eStreamly.
Thank you, Wyatt, for joining us. We’re so excited and so thrilled to have you. What’s been going on at eStreamly? After the last few weeks, we’ve been taking a lot of feedback on the way we onboard our customers and newcomers to the platform. We’ve released what we feel is a pretty good self-onboarding process.
Anyone that wants to get into livestream shopping, if you have an eCommerce, WooCommerce, or even a Shopify account, you can couple clicks and get in relatively smoothly and easily now with a whole flow. We’re pretty excited about this because there’s something about technology and human response that I feel very much aligned with here. We can build what you want, but then everyone has different behavior and expect different things.
It’s only through conversation that you understand the different nuances of how people operate and change. Going back to live shopping, that’s what it provides. It’s bringing that human touch and that human feel about the old experience. That’s what we’ve been trying to do through this onboarding process. I hope this is something that is going to be better and improve for the users.
Speaking of live shopping and video commerce, I’m a super fan of what you’re doing. I came across some of your content on LinkedIn. You are pretty active there and you are posting on a regular basis. You’re an early adopter of this technology. You’ve looked at it and joined some awesome companies, from the Bambuser side and BuzzFeed, and had the chance to work with some pretty amazing corporations. I’d love to start to ask you. How did you get started with this? Where did that come from? Was it an opportunity, or were you like, “There’s this video thing I want to find out and dive in?” How did that start?
First off, thank you all so much for having me on the show. I love what you all are doing over there. Having spaces like this where we can discuss what’s happening and see how we’re maturing overall as an industry is so important. I’m grateful that you all created this space. I’ve been working in commerce for my entire career.
Especially when I was at BuzzFeed, my job was to lead our strategic partnerships with the major retailers. What that looked like was coordinating this strategy for their spend across BuzzFeed’s media ecosystem, which has every type of product imaginable and media product that is. My job was to think about what was new and next in commerce and build offerings that our retailers would want to partner with us on to support and to see if they could grow and mature into something that was driving significant value for these companies.
We did a bunch of different things. We built dedicated shopping verticals for pets. We built shoppable recipes for Tasty, our food brand. We added commerce layers to a lot of different elements of our content. All that was interesting. It was productive and valuable. In the brands that we worked with, we’re excited about a lot of those initiatives. It wasn’t until live shopping specifically that these brands got so excited beyond anything that we could potentially have hoped for.
When we first launched our live shopping product at BuzzFeed, we sold a lot of our inventory immediately. We had mini brands wanting to work with us that couldn’t. We didn’t have enough inventory to offer them. It was something that I had never seen in all my years in commerce, that type of response and excitement. It’s because we know these trends are happening in this larger ecosystem. We know video is becoming more and more important for consumers and that’s how they want to experience their brands. We know that this commerce layer is not quite there yet in terms of ease of purchase.Video is becoming more and more important for consumers. It’s how they want to experience their brands. Click To Tweet
Combining those things into one solution has some real power. A lot of people recognize that this is the case, and now it’s a matter of building the right solutions to unlock that potential within the market. That’s how I walked into the space but didn’t expect the response that we received. I was like, “This is something I want to work on. It’s something that I want to dive into a little bit more and see what we can start to build here because the potential is there.”
I love the overview you’re providing. First of all, what’s the timeline for this? When did this start to happen? We’re in 2023 now, and it’s been years. When I met Nicolas and he told me about eStreamly, that was in 2020. I have been knowledgeable and experimenting with live video for a while, but live commerce wasn’t on my mind until a few years ago. I’m curious about what the timeline has been for you, Wyatt, and what you’ve seen shift.
It was about that same timeline of 2020. We first started working with Amazon Live in the space when I was at BuzzFeed. We had a deep relationship with Amazon. BuzzFeed writes a lot of content curating Amazon lists and has a deep affiliate relationship with Amazon. They came to us when they launched Amazon Live and were like, “We would love for you to be a publisher on our platform.”
That’s how we started testing and learning from a production standpoint, “How does live work? What are the different mechanics you need to build into it? What are the different strategies from a content perspective that are going to be effective in this space?” About mid-2020 was when we first started experimenting with Amazon and we found a good response for the content. I can get into some details there. It wasn’t exactly the value yet that Amazon was hoping to drive.
It’s so interesting watching how Amazon evolves with all of this, and we’re certainly paying attention to that. I started experimenting with Amazon Inspire, which is their TikTok-based feature. I’m curious about these effective strategies for content because that was going to be my follow-up question anyway. What does this look like for content creators as well as brands that are creating their own content and what’s working?
There are a couple of different things that are working. One, for brands, building video content specifically into your onsite experience is driving a lot more value than static images on your website. Having that ability to interact directly with someone from the brand in a live on a brand’s website has a ton of power in terms of creating a positive experience with that consumer.
When you walk into a store, there’s always someone there to help. That’s not the case right now in eCommerce when you hit a website. That’s why in the large part, you see the conversion rate overall in eCommerce being so much lower than it is in-store. It’s because we’ve removed that personalization from that site experience. Where brands can see a lot of success is introducing back that personalization that they’ve already have a mindset of service from their store perspective.
That’s one thing. The other thing is in terms of the content itself, it depends on who you are and what you’re trying to achieve. There’s no one-size-fits-all strategy for successful live content. There are a couple of playbooks that you can think about as a brand. A couple of those playbooks could look like if you have a big drop coming. It’s like there’s a new collection. There’s a new product that you’re introducing to your audience. That’s a great format to introduce that product to your audience. It’s timebound. If you’re a brand that creates a sense of exclusivity, there’s power in creating a little bit of FOMO within that audience.There's no one-size-fits-all strategy for successful live content. The content depends on who you are and what you're trying to achieve. Click To Tweet
As a next strategy, there’s also that timebound coupon code. People love a deal. They love feeling like they’re getting something special that other people aren’t. That’s what has made live content generally more successful. If you think about the business model of QVC and HSN, they’re never being like, “Pay the full price for this product.” It’s always, “Here’s a discount code for this stream. You have to act now.”
There has to be a reason why the consumer needs to act in that moment, especially if they’re discovering that content is not on their own site experience. They’re not going to go because these social platforms do have not built-in seamless comment tools for their video content. They’re not going to go to another site and convert if there’s no reason to do that at that moment. They’re going to keep scrolling. They’re not going to leave the platform.
In terms of those content types, that’s what you want to start to look towards. The other thing that’s interesting that we can talk a little bit more about is the strategy with creators. How do you use them effectively and what is the right cadence with creators as external brand ambassadors versus also using maybe internal brand ambassadors? If you’re looking to drive buzz, a creator is a good way to drive depending on the audience alignment and also how engaged their audience is with their own content. A creator is a great way, especially if it’s a bigger name to create that sense of specialty right around the content.
You don’t want it to be like, “Watch us sit in the store. Do whatever.” You want to have a reason why that user or that audience member is going to tune in and engage. Putting in front of them someone that they care about and are interested in a format that allows them to interact with that person is a great way to get them to engage. The other potential content bucket is that utility content. People want to understand your product a bit more. You think about the typical user purchase behavior. It looks different depending on the category of goods that you’re buying. Electronics look different than a shoe.
With that being said, a lot of consumers do a lot of research before they buy. They want to understand what they’re buying and why it’s a value to them. Especially for those larger ticket items, they’re usually watching several different review videos right before they make that purchase. This type of content format is great for educating your audience in-depth on the value of your product.
Being able to showcase it live in an interactive environment where they can almost experience the product, it’s the best approximation that they could possibly have on the web versus having the product in front of them themselves. Those are a couple of thoughts on that content potential bucket that you can start to think about as you’re developing this for your brand and partners.
I love all you’re saying. It’s insightful. There’s one thing in particular that resonated with me. When you were talking about personalization, the fact that you bring on the stuff to be able to engage with the audience and answer the specific question that that person may have. I remember sitting in a couple of meetings over the past and mentioning the personalization aspect and the value that your shopper could get. I’m often faced with folks that are saying, “Live shopping is not scalable compared to AI when you talk about personalization.”
In some way, there are many ways of doing personalization and recommendation of products. I don’t know if you had some of those comments, and I would love to hear your thought about when you think about personalization, how does that differ? Is it complementary? Are they competing against AI? What do you say to that common argument that personally you have been facing?
It’s not competitive necessarily. Personalization isn’t going to be one thing. It’s going to be a confluence of factors that your shopper feels the content that you’re creating or the experience that they have is unique to them and is relevant to what they’re looking for. In terms of how live shopping specifically is that sense of personalization. I do think that the actual content format on a brand’s website is unique. It’s a unique experience and something that is more engaging. When you can speak to someone representing the brand directly, within the stream that’s not some AI chatbot, it’s a human on this.
It’s scalable because it’s one person talking to a bunch of people at once. It isn’t giving a specific message to the user when they land on your website like, “Samantha, how are you doing?” It’s a different type of personalization, but it personalizes your brand. It allows an entry point at scale for someone to come and find out what you’re all about as a brand. I am quite interested to see how AI, live shopping, and video commerce overall start to interact. It is creating content. We’re seeing the trend. It’s easier to create content or it will be easier to create content. We see that future pretty close at hand.
How does that affect video and a live experience? One of the things that will be the hardest, probably the last vestige of this human-centric content creation, is that live component. You’re not going to be able to create that via an AI simulator or image generation. That won’t be possible. Can you create maybe a cool product video in the future? Maybe. Yeah. That’s certainly possible, but that actual real-time response of the content itself is something that’s unique. I do think there is a reason why this is so successful in other parts of the world. It is because there’s this personalization.
It is because it’s someone. It’s a human interacting with you in a digital environment. There are so many reasons why it hasn’t happened in the West, but that fundamental desire on behalf of those consumers is there. We do, as humans, crave that interaction. We crave the ability to see humanity in each other. Brands more and more are starting to realize that they need to bring that essence to what they’re doing.We do, as humans, crave that interaction. We crave the ability to see humanity in each other. Brands are starting to realize that they need to bring that essence to what they're doing. Click To Tweet
I agree with you. One of the things that I personally believe is why there’s such a difference between Asian countries or other countries that are more successful with live shopping investors and what we are seeing in the US is more regarding a mindset about how commerce is meant already. In China, there’s a lack of trust overall from the market, and having the ability to engage with the person gives you that extra confidence.
You see the person on the back end, you can ask the question, and see the product in the real faith. We don’t have this lack of trust in the US market necessarily. The idea of authenticity and having that relationship, which is important for Western cultures, being able to build that back is what’s going to be the trigger in my point of view and that’s how we are going to create new experiences.
Adding on to that, that’s correct. Part of the problem with adoption here in the West is our infrastructure looks different. Our social platforms and their ability to embed commerce within their experience is not the same as everything being interconnected as it is in Asia. We are so fragmented in our purchase pass here in the US, and it’s not changing super rapidly either. One thing that I see starting to develop within this space is the realization that we can’t rely on these platforms to build these solutions for us in some ways. You look at what’s happening right now with Instagram, removing the shopping tab with Facebook pulling back, more generally from commerce.
You have TikTok which has experience from China that works and is leaning into it. I expect to see a lot more development in terms of products for that platform. Same with YouTube, they’re leaning into it more, but the way that they’ve gone about it has not worked for our brands. Part of the reason why Facebook didn’t pursue this is that brands weren’t adopting it.
Brands didn’t trust Facebook to give their product APIs. What that means, at the end of the day for the space and for people that are interested in creating content for live specifically or you’re a brand that’s interested in using this as a tool within your marketing toolkit, is you need to start to think about how do we build this into our own environment? How do we build this into something that we own and that it’s simple to use?
If I were a brand, I would focus a lot more on my own onsite experience as a platform itself than I would rely on these social platforms to drive conversion for me. Your website should be your conversion machine, and you should be able to have content that sits on top of that that is engaging and what your audience wants to see, and that is live and that is video. If you’re a content creator, it is in your best interest to start to think about how you build on platforms that are going to support you with this tooling that you need to be, that you need to have to be successful, and what that’s going to look like.
There are some interesting cool companies in the space that are working on specifically the social commerce element and are starting to step into the gaps that are being left by these bigger social platforms. I’m happy to chat about what some of those things could be but, at the end of the day, there is this value of creating an audience where they can purchase versus creating an audience where it’s fragmented from that purchased behavior if you’re looking to do a shop shopping content.
We had Sarah Williams that went and was a guest on the show. She mentioned that very thing. They tried multiple platforms and, in the end, they didn’t look for where they will get the most view, but the success was where the audience was the most willing to purchase. For her, it was on Pinterest. For someone else, it can be on whatnot, or for someone else, it can be on your own website. It depends. It can be maybe on Facebook or Instagram if that’s the place where your audience is. For a lot of people, Facebook communities are drivers of sales. It’s interesting to think of it that way. It’s, “Where is my audience?” not focusing on the numbers, but focusing on that element.
That builds upon what our previous episode was all about with Joe, which was simplifying, focusing, and niching down as they say. For the last few years or so, there’s been this pressure to diversify. Be everywhere. That was a big piece of advice for a while, and maybe still is. People are trying to be on every platform, but they’re so unfocused because of that. Every platform is a little bit different.
If you are interested in something like live shopping, a great point that you’re making, Wyatt, is understanding how live shopping works on those platforms or deciding, “I’m going to use a tool like eStreamly so I can integrate it into my website, focus there, and try to drive traffic to the website.” That was also something that Joe was talking about in the last episode, which is not building everything on rented land because we don’t know how the platforms are going to change.
You mentioned the changes that have happened with shopping capabilities on some of these big platforms. If you go all in on a tool like that and suddenly, the platform decides to take it away, now what happens? You’ve wasted your time, resources, maybe money, and team members versus if you do it on your website and focus there, you’re reducing the friction and you have something that is a lot more dependable for a long-term strategy. Would you agree with that?
Yeah. In addition to that, if you don’t know what product changes are going to happen on the platform, then you also don’t know what commission changes are going to happen on the platform. Part of the reason why people didn’t adopt Facebook’s commerce tools is that the commission that they were taking was crazy. It was never in your best interest to put your eggs all in that basket because you knew from the get-go that you were already getting a pretty high tariff on that audience that you were building. I do think it is a matter of being smart about where you’re building and how you’re building and building within those environments that you own is always the best and is always the most valuable.
I do think there is also balance in everything. You want to build for your own environments and also for the channels that you are seeing the most positive response for. However, you do also want to be smart about how you’re utilizing the content that you’re creating. Too often I see brands create valuable content, especially within a live environment, and then only keep it within that environment.You want to be smart about how you're utilizing the content that you're creating. Click To Tweet
Where some of these brands spent a significant amount of money on the production of that piece of content, and you should be repurposing that content where you can, as it makes sense. There’s a lot of missed value in this space in terms of repurposing content in a scalable way that will drive incremental value beyond that time-bound live portion of the show.
I love that. I don’t know if you read the past episode but we talk about this all the time. This notion of repurposing the content is so important. It’s funny because there is probably something more than that. I personally have a lot of conversations with brands and I can preach all day long about it, but still, this content is not being repurposed. Until you do it for them, you say, “This is the snippet,” also, the challenge is, there are more and more things that you need to do every day. Getting that value, you’re putting that content out, you have a budget, and then your boss approves that budget.
That repurposing is not something that the boss is going to care for. Why would you do that? It may sound a little bit pessimistic, but it comes down to that. How do we make it easier for people to repurpose that content and then distribute it? It is still something I believe the industry is liking and speaking of what the industry is liking, I’d love to hear your thought.
You’ve been in this space for a few years now, what do you think is the other thing? We talked about that notion of maybe the commissions and you talk about that repurpose, but where is the white space in the live shopping? What is missing for broad adoption from your point of view? How do we make live shopping a more mainstream thing?
This industry has built a lot of great tools and there are a lot of underutilized ones in this space already. We will start to see more adoption of these basic tools that have been built but I do think there is still some stuff missing. Nicolas, what you were hinting at in terms of there’s a gap between maximizing the value of the content that you’re creating.
I would love to see companies, especially those that are building tech in this space. Think about, how they build within their tech, the ability to easily repurpose content so that it creates more value for their brands. How do you create channels in which to distribute that content that can scale up that aren’t going to require everything to be on the brand itself or the marketer itself that’s working on it?
You’re right. A lot of times, they have their budget. Maybe they have an incremental budget that they would be willing to give you if you had the ability to distribute in a more scalable way. They aren’t always focused on creating the most value out of the tools that have been given to them because of a variety of reasons. In a lot of cases, it’s because they don’t have the full knowledge as maybe someone who’s thinking about the space and working in this space has about how to be more effective in terms of scaling that. I would love to see more tools and more companies build tools that allow for that distribution at scale to drive audience.
For these brands, I believe that we need to transform these static eCommerce experiences into things that are live, interactive, and video-based. I’m not one to say that live shopping is the only solution or only part of that toolkit. You do need to have all, and there are a couple of companies in the space that have the ability to support a lot of different iterations.
We need to start to think about how we build a narrative within this market that it’s about transforming the site experience more than anything. It’s about bringing people into this new phase of the web, which is video-based. There’s no question about that. We know this has happened, and everyone agrees with it. It’s video first, yet our commerce does not reflect that.
In terms of framing the solutions within the space, it is helping those brands enter into that video-first era, and it’s providing them with the tools to do that are going to drive that value. We know the problems that they’re going to encounter as they start to make that transition. They’re going to want more audience, content that’s compelling, and work with creators that are relevant to their audience. The people that are able to offer them that whole solution are the ones that are going to be most successful.
I do think there is space for more companies to think about how to serve these creators specifically. We know from watching other markets develop and other types of content formats develop. It is always creator-led. Creators are such a necessary and key component to this space. There hasn’t been a lot yet that has been built to serve them. I would like to see that change. I would like to see more creators start to hop into the space because they feel the tools that are being provided to them are meeting their needs.
You talked to creators for a couple of minutes and they’re not exactly thrilled with the current social big social platforms’ offerings in terms of their cut. The TikTok one made $0.05 for the ad-sharing revenue even though it had over 100,000 views. Creators are starting to realize that they can’t necessarily rely on these social platforms for monetization. There are tools that you can build into some of these platforms that help ease that monetization issue. There are also tools that we can be providing to allow those creators to bring their audience into these shopping spaces with ease.
You’re spot on there because authenticity is a big word on this show. It’s a big word in social media. One thing that you spoke so well on is that human touch. It’s also a strategy that might save you a lot of time. Creators spend so much time developing their strategies, making their content, analyzing it, partnering with brands, and trying to figure out how to monetize. Live shopping isn’t necessarily easy, but it can be time effective once you get it down. You sit down, you do your live, and aside from repurposing your content, you’re done with it.
It also adds that authenticity that so many people are seeking, because when you’re live, your humanity is there. It’s not edited. It’s not necessarily scripted. It feels rawer, connected, and personalized, which I love how much you emphasize that, Wyatt. You shared so much. The way you frame live shopping is so beneficial for us at eStreamly and for our readers. I found everything you said so compelling. It made me even more excited. I’m thinking about live shopping every week, but you took it to another level. I’m not sure if you feel the same, Nicolas, but I felt this is an amazing rally for live shopping.
First of all, on our show, we have a lot of people that are excited about the space or the future of the space but it’s not often that we have a chance to have someone like you that live and breathe the space all day long and help people strategize. One of the things that I was seeing you going is when we were talking about what’s missing in the spaces. There’s a lot of missing on the strategy side and people that help strategize this whole space still, it’s that, and you embody that well. You have a good understanding of where is the shopper, what’s been working, and what’s not been working. How do you strategize about the different verticals?
That’s the value you provide. I’m hoping that in this industry, there will be a lot of Wyatts. I’m not saying that they should all compete against you. I’m hoping that it would be easier for folks to be able to engage with people that can guide them through the process. You and I talked about this. Technology is only 20% of live shopping. It’s to figure out who is the host, how I do it, where I do it, how I engage with them, all the different elements, from the legal perspective to the product setup, and all those things and touchpoints, are important, some more than others.
That’s what you bring to the table. I’m also super grateful for all the content you put out there because, as an industry, one of the things I personally would love to see more is that the whole community start to share more content. We are content-based people. We should be a content-based solution too. We should all be talking about this all day long. People that are questioning themselves can have plenty of resources. I wish we could bring that more to the industry.
I appreciate you all having me on and chatting about this because I do love this space and think it’s so exciting to be operating in it. At the end of the day, it’s undeniable trends that we’re chasing. It is this shift to video. It’s a shift to purchasing online. What we’ve seen post-pandemic is that eCommerce is here to stay, still growing, and is becoming more of the retail market share already. These are fundamental trends within our economy that are undeniable. The space that we’re working on is what is going to be the future. The future looks like it’s going to be video-based. The ease of purchase will be there, hopefully, in some cases. Maybe we’ll take others longer to figure it out.What we've seen post-pandemic is that eCommerce is here to stay, is still growing, and is already taking more of the retail market share. These are fundamental trends in our economy that are undeniable. Click To Tweet
It’s so exciting to be operating in this space. What I’m trying to do with Video + Commerce, the newsletter that I’m creating more content, is thinking about the space at a bit of a more macro level. What is happening within social commerce? How these platforms are changing their technology, updating the product features that they’re offering, and what are some of those insights around what’s working within those different environments? Also, looking at, how are these underlying trends starting to change and shift, whether that be from creators to content strategy to even the different tech solutions that are out there. There’s a lot to think about in this space.
One thing that I would encourage us as we are people that are in the weeds here within this space is how we create those entry points for people that are new to help them come along on this journey and learn in a way that doesn’t presume knowledge. One thing I think about Nicolas that you were saying is there is that strategy piece of, how do we think through all these different elements?
There are so many people that are learning and relearning those exact same things that someone else has gone through for themselves every single day, especially within this space. There are so many people that are coming and reinventing the wheel every time because they don’t know someone else has been through the same experience.
They don’t know that there are people out there that can help and provide them with these resources and that bigger overall strategy. One thing that I strive towards doing is meeting people where they’re at and then helping them along on this journey. Not everyone’s going to be able to know all the different platforms there are and what are the different subsets of features that are right for their brand and all those different things. You can’t expect people to know that. I love providing spaces that help people come and learn and find out some new information that maybe they didn’t know before.
You’re doing such a great job on it. I went and signed up for your newsletter because I love the way you talk about this. You’re so knowledgeable. You’re approachable. We already have a number of guests and other industry people there. It serves that very purpose that you’re mentioning, Wyatt, because we couldn’t agree more that being there for each other, sharing what’s working, and keeping each other up to date is so valuable. It is pretty crucial because why would you want to try to figure everything out on your own when you have a resource of amazing people who are there to give you advice, root for you, and collaborate with you?
Community is so incredibly helpful. We’d be thrilled to have you, Wyatt. We’d be thrilled to have the reader. Wyatt, you raised the bar for this show. You took it to another level by the way you speak about it, the confidence, the clarity, and the value you offer. Our guests are going to have to step it up. Speaking of guests, we have new episodes of this show with amazing people every week, every Tuesday to be precise.
For the reader, if you haven’t subscribed yet, we would love to have you here every week and we’re always welcoming your feedback. A great place to put it is in the community. You can leave us a rating or a review on iTunes and Spotify. Some other platforms offer that, too. We are here for you. We’re here to add value. We’re here to learn together to raise the industry up like Nicolas was saying. We’ll be back again next time with another episode. In the meantime, bye for now.